For some reason, it was this series that made me fall into some kind of incomprehensible precipitate. And not because of the cruelty, but because of how the Lecturer violated the original idea of this work.
Actually, this is what allowed Will to understand that the "center of the mural" was made by another person. The Lecturer had miscalculations, this is not the first time.
@Kir-ka: in my opinion, the Lecturer intentionally "violated the idea of the work" The author himself saw nothing but darkness, and the Lecturer, by placing the author there, wanted to "help him see"
It started when a guy was tearing himself away from himself and other people.. I'm not one of the faint of heart, but even I somehow shrank a little.. a strong scene. and in general, the whole series is just a masterpiece.
I think this episode showed me how sick Hannibal is in his head. Like all the creators of the series. And I want to carry Bedelia in my arms because she made it clear to Will that he's not alone.
@3Hansel3: you have a funny logic in terms of blaming the victims, I noticed)
Well, yes, I could, but I just don't remember that at least someone could put Hannibal behind bars without consequences for themselves.
Lecter is portrayed in the series as not quite human. there is no evidence against him, people always believe him, he is a little more than a man, but definitely less than God.
@peachisapple: An old woman, knowing that many young girls are dying, could sacrifice herself if she is so sure of Ganny's omnipotence. She doesn't have any children, she doesn't really need to live. And here young girls are dying, just like she once did. And her action would have ruined all of Gunny's plans, even if he had run away, it would still have saved a lot of lives. And Ganny would have to hide and it would be difficult to conduct his activities.
@3Hansel3: why would she do that?) everyone wants to live, don't lie, and no one wants to sacrifice their lives. a woman does not become less valuable in the absence of children or if she is older.
@peachisapple: Nonsense. You think she is too stupid, primitive and very narrow-minded, but in the film she is presented to us as a very smart person. Yes, she will certainly have the first thought to run away and hide. But, do not forget, she talked too much with the beast to understand how much horror it would bring, and that there was no one else to stop Hannibal except her! Her first thought will be, like yours, to run away and hide, to save her skin, but the more she thinks about it, the more convinced she would be of the intention to act. They're showing us. that she has been studying Ganny for a long time, and the stage of "running away and hiding in horror" has already been passed by her. The next stage of her acceptance of reality is that there is no one else to stop Ganny.
@3Hansel3: What nonsense. I don'T think Bedelia is stupid, I think she's a smart woman. And that's why she didn't go to the police. he has dirt on her in the form of past affairs, she chose the most convenient position for herself.
@3Hansel3: No, I don't think so. what a panic, if she has studied the killer for years, she knows what he is and who he pretends to be. she sensed danger and carefully disappeared.
@peachisapple: No. You imagine her too primitive again: she sensed danger and immediately saved her skin. Saving your own skin is the first and most primitive urge. But it is not so primitive. After thinking about the situation, she is a doctor, she understands that someone has to stop the beast, it will ruin so many more people. And that there is no one but her! It's like the Academic maniacs were handed over by their uncle after seeing a video of the massacres. That if she ran away, the constant news from the area about the disfigured victims found would constantly haunt her. She can't live peacefully reading on the news how another mutilated victim is found in the area. That she wouldn't run away from this while Gunny was free. According to your logic, then doctors should not have visited infected people for fear of getting infected. "My skin is more important to me, it does not matter that I am a doctor, I ran to save my skin, I will not go to the infected in the hospital room."
@3Hansel3: No, I don't see it as primitive. If she got scared and ran away immediately after the mysterious death of her patient, yes, then we could talk about primitive urges.
and why are you trying to impose one specific case (of one particular bedelia) on all people of the same profession at once? It's completely ridiculous.
she did what she did, there are enough characters with gray morals in this story. they should not be accepted as bae, but they should not be evaluated from the point of view of general morality. That's not what they're made for.
@peachisapple: Why do we watch TV shows? We watch the series and evaluate the situation. And quite naturally we evaluate it with the morality that we know.
To watch and not evaluate the situation in the series - I do not even know how it is.
@3Hansel3: Oh, don't, ah. I'm not talking about that. I did not call for a zero reaction, but said that the score should match the characters. For example, if Will starts killing, you will treat it differently than if Hannibal kills.
It's the same with the doctors in this series, some may be white-fingered / mean / selfish, while others may not. and there is no point in judging them all equally.
@peachisapple: Wait. If the character is mean and self-serving, I write that he is mean and self-serving. And how else to write about such a character?
@3Hansel3: what's mean to one is just a way to solve problems for the other)
For Hannibal, out, Will is a friend. or something more. For Will, out, Hannibal is a monster. or something more, over time. yes, of course, you will take the side of the one who is closer to you and it is from this point of view that you will evaluate what is happening.
but does your point of view make these characters (and their actions) unambiguous? No.
@peachisapple: According to your logic, then justice will become impossible. When considering each criminal case, the courts will stand in a stupor: Yes, for us this man is a murderer, but for those who know him well, he is a good man. Look at how his wife protected the maniac Popkov: He is a good family man, and I do not believe that he killed anyone. So what? Then don't judge him?
@3Hansel3: and why did you suddenly decide to transfer the value judgments from watching TV series to the legal sphere? and, so, with a bang.
reasoning about morality (and even more so gray) does not necessarily have to be reflected in the laws, but such questions need to be asked, and only then, in the future, through discussions, practice (of course, disputes) will they find their application in life
@peachisapple: The legal sphere is a more or less documented reflection of general morality. And if the law provides for punishment for deception, fraud and causing harm (in general, meanness), then this law was just prescribed from the point of view of morality.
@peachisapple: And what is the "grey morality"? There are mitigating factors, that's all, but morality is more or less always morality. And if someone distorts morality for their own benefit, then it's just his attempts to turn around, nothing more.
@peachisapple: No, you're just too young, and you don't understand that there is no "gray", half-hearted morality. That there are only mitigating factors and that's it. And all the talk about "gray morality" is just a way to manipulate the guilty and avoid responsibility.
@3Hansel3: exists. you just don't want to admit that there is another point of view (because this is a safe tactic itself, everything is divided into black and white, there are no problems, just make the right choice) and try to tie your conclusions to age. and I say this as a person who does not accept gray morality.
@peachisapple: No one is saying that the world is divided into black and white. But if you have harmed another person, then be kind: take responsibility. That's all.
@peachisapple: I'm not exaggerating Bedelia's responsibility one bit. I'm just explaining the most logical and right step for Bedelia. And "running away and hiding" is too primitive for such a supposedly smart character.
and why on earth would you suddenly decide for the heroine/creators of the series? on which her character, logical actions, etc. depend. She did this in the canon.
It's just that you see her differently, but that's only your problem when her actions don't fit into your ideas about her.
@peachisapple: It's not a performance- it's a life experience. She could not have continued to live on her own, regularly meeting in the news feeds about Gannushka's new victims that she could have stopped him and was cowardly. And if she is supposedly an intelligent person, she understands this perfectly well and would not run away anywhere, but would act.
@peachisapple: This is not canon, this is nonsense. Another primitive series in which suspense is sucked out of your finger, so that you don't switch. We will create an indestructible Gannushka with superpowers, so that every time " amaze" an unassuming viewer: "How cool he is!" And when you start turning your head on, trying on situations for normal, adult people, the whole plot outline of the series falls apart. Even in the situation with Bedelia, they did it stupidly.
@3Hansel3: Hannibal is intentionally made like this in the series, he even appears as a wendigo in Will's mind. He is not a human being, but rather an image of a demon/absolute evil. The plot revolves around his confrontation with Will's absolute goodness. The series is metaphorical, it's not true Krim and Kanetsky.
and again, you do not want to follow the idea of the authors, transferring everything to another plane.
@peachisapple: Here the metaphorical cat has cried enough. The way you describe it is very far-fetched. So you can call any work where there is an antagonist and a protagonist "metaphorical" - this one represents evil", and this one represents good", and in the film some Andreasyan is again considered The eternal great philosophical theme of the struggle of the beaver with the donkey. And if you remember, Gannushka does not reach the pathos of absolute evil at all: he does not touch cute characters, he kills only those who commit ugly deeds.
I understand that the series greatly impressed you as a child. But sometime it still comes time to reconsider your childhood experiences.
@3Hansel3: Gannushka in some way punishes for some misdeeds of different characters. In its own way, of course, it is greatly exaggerated, with manic zeal, but it punishes. For example, that the character slurps and climbs into the common plate with his fingers. And he does not touch characters who do not have such flaws in behavior.
Even Chicatillo or Popkov in their film incarnations are closer to the concept of absolute evil than Gannushka. There are just maniacs who want and kill for no reason.
@3Hansel3: Now I would like to compare the variation (and an interesting one, unlike the previous ones) of Hannibal with Andreasyan's films. a fantastic heresy. you seem to have a love for comparing the incomparable, not for the first time I notice.
I watched the series at a conscious age, not as a child, again you are fantasizing and adjusting the information in the way that is convenient for you.
@peachisapple: And you're trying to justify the stupidity and inconsistencies in the series with some kind of mythical metaphor, but it doesn't stick. This metaphor is too far-fetched here, like the films of Andreasyan and Hannibal.
@3Hansel3: of course, there is nothing so much to watch that you persistently watch and analyze it) in order not to see the obvious in this series, of course, you still need to try.
@peachisapple: Why am I watching? I watched it once last year. I didn't watch it before and after that. And the most obvious thing I just saw is a stupid manipulative series, and nothing more. All these clumsy ways that the creators are trying to manipulate the viewer, when carefully analyzed, cause only rejection by their inconsistency and unnatural straining.
@peachisapple: No, I'm just being objective. I do not allow myself to be clouded by manipulative techniques from Brian Fuller and the team, I do not succumb to influence and always try to assess the situation with a sober mind :)
@peachisapple: The series is in three seasons. There are a lot of plot twists filled with cheap manipulative techniques (with the same Ebi, as they absurdly tried to make a victim out of it), and you can't describe all these techniques in general in one phrase: an idea and a new look at the old villain. This conversation is not getting to the point.
@3Hansel3: Strictly speaking, Abi became a victim just after she confessed to helping her father and came under Hannibal's protection.
it is very impossible, of course, because we have so many similar adaptations of Hannibal. Everyone is like that with the aestheticization of murders, yeah.
You talk about objectivity, but you are no less subjective than I am.
@peachisapple: In order to avoid mutual accusations of subjectivism, let's move away from personal exclamations and move on to examples. As for Abi, I've given you a lot of examples where accomplices to murders like Abi were jailed anyway, given mitigating circumstances, but no one fully justified them. Can you give examples of your point of view from real life? Until there are examples, it's all just your subjectivism.
@3Hansel3: I told you that your examples do not fit, because there was nowhere a situation in which the daughter of a maniac was an accomplice/accomplice to the murders.
and yet, I have never denied the existence of her guilt, whereas you demonize her as much as possible, saying that she does not deserve a drop of sympathy.
@peachisapple: Looking for it. Let's. So what if she's the daughter of a maniac. This is an adult and capable citizen of his country. The mother helped Spesivtsev, but the mother loved her son, loved him with the strongest love, maternal. Abi didn't love her father as much as Spesivtsev's mother.
@peachisapple: There's not that much fear there. He did not keep her on a leash or locked up, she walked quietly, talked with friends, and spent a lot of time without her father's supervision. That fear prevented her from doing the right thing is utter nonsense, and one of the most ridiculous excuses.
And it's good that you don't lift a finger - this once again proves the inconsistency of your statements.
And indeed, there is a mother there, not a daughter. A mother is more attached to her child than a 19-year-old daughter is to her father.
@peachisapple: Everything is clear. As it was required to prove, there is nothing but your personal subjectivism behind your arguments. Only your emotions, no objectivity and logic. This distinguishes all fans of this series: few people think with their heads.
This ability of Will to see the big picture already borders on clairvoyance. Let's say he could still understand that the maniac himself is in the center of the fresco. But how could he understand that none other than Hannibal killed the maniac?
@Stein256: This is my personal assumption, but I think he realized that the second killer had to understand the "beauty" of the idea of the artist of the fresco (and there are only two such people - himself and Hannibal), but, nevertheless, the second was confident enough to change the idea of the fresco. And the author of the fresco has a leg cut off, where is there more evidence that it is needed for dinner at the ogre's?
@Stein256: I like how the series shows Will's vision of the killer's identity. The point here is not clairvoyance, but the fact that, as Will said, "interpreting evidence," he can reconstruct the image of the killer. In fact, it works like this: from the presence / absence of certain evidence, you can understand the behavioral characteristics of the killer (how he behaved, whether he was confident / doubted whether he had a plan / spontaneous attack / what was the plan). And based on this, we can draw a conclusion about the emotions that the killer was experiencing at the time of the crime. Due to his very heightened empathy abilities, Will feels the emotional components especially sharply. And the peculiarities of his perception paint a picture in the brain. For example, the copycat, after the first murder, became a deer. Interestingly, a very similar deer, only in the form of a statuette, stood in Hannibal's office (he also killed a man with it later, do you remember?), but Will did not correlate this, mistaking it for mind games (it's easy for us, the audience, to say, we know who it really was). And after the murder of the girl from the pressure chamber, the image of a deer in Will's mind transformed into the image of a burned man with deer antlers. You see? So it's not clairvoyance, it's empathy + well-developed intuition.
@sinsegi: Would you take his word for it, right? despite the fact that all the evidence points to him. It's easy to judge when you're shown the real story, and Jack only has evidence against Will.
It's terrible of course))) but damn, what delicious dishes the Lecturer prepares, my mouth is watering, and this is taking into account that I know that this is a human) it should be presented like this)))
And I also love the scenes of him feeding people with human flesh and still being sarcastic, but they don't understand)))
@CoralDuck: and not just on the way, but almost crashes into the facade of the house. There have been too many TV shows, movies and other nonsense with the theme of cannibalism lately.
I've watched a lot of horror movies, but I wasn't ready for this beginning of the series) it's just an indescribable feeling. I feel sorry for Will. And they also get him for work. And I would also like more Gillian Anderson!!! And where did the reporter go again? Why isn't she in the thick of things? doesn't bother with questions about Gramm? She just somehow does not praise
So, in order not to leave fingerprints, we put on gloves, put on a protective suit so that no trace of shoes remained, no fibers from the victim got on the clothes. And why not put a hat on your head? Or does his hair not fall off his head? And if the victim scratches his face? Somehow the defense was not thought out.
@Victoria_Vi: then we would all laugh at him, instead of constantly being amazed by his evil genius :D Just imagine Hannibal in a beanie, it's unbearable
Has anyone noticed the style of the episode titles of each season???Season 1 French,2 Japanese,3 Italian)) Maybe this is related to the dishes served by the doctor Lecturer))
@vk646630: and if we extended it for a few more seasons, we could get to Russian cuisine. The first series is cabbage soup, the second is jelly, the third is jelly, the fourth is cheesecake for dessert.
Although there are some questions to the plot, for example, why Will is accepted as the Chesapeake ripper, while somehow forgetting about that Crawford student, "gifts" in the form of her hand, calls from Crawford's own house, and so on, the visual and audio accompaniment is just an orgasm. And those stares of Graham and Hannibal, oh.
@AiWaKokoro: The Chesapeake Ripper version has been postponed for now. It's still a version. And now there's too much evidence pointing to Will. Much less evidence points to a connection with the Chesapeake Ripper, so they chose a more reasonable version.: That the killer is Will.
there is some incredible delight inside. it's really artistically beautiful, although extraordinarily brutal. this is the second top series for me, which was so amazing, along with a series about mushrooms on people's bodies. and in the end, these perfumes and the voice of a psychiator are simply magnifique
The beginning of the series is just darkness. It's rare to catch such scenes (in Hannibal, no murders had ever caused disgust before, for example), but here it's already goosebumps... Imagine what it would be like to tear yourself away from the corpses looking at you with unbearable pain... I was rooting for him until the last moment. Jack and co, of course, are being duplicitous. "Will, you're a murderer, but help us find another murderer, ah, brotherly!" Although it is difficult for them, of course: it is difficult to move against the evidence. Bedelia is a goddess! It was only necessary to talk more closely with Hannibal, try to get into his head and, apparently, go through something traumatic together (did he kill the attacking patient, or what?), as soon as you begin to believe more willingly in Will's innocence)
Somehow, the maniac was given to Hannibal easily. Why didn't he shoot him with a sniper rifle? Such a farm cannot be maintained by one person. You can't train so many bodies unnoticed. And Hannibal himself would have been noticed in a transparent suit. Plus, I would have lit up the car. The moment with the severed leg is also unclear. When Hannibal sewed the maniac into the center of the composition, there was a leg. There would be a lot of sawing marks left.
Начало серии просто жуть, мне кажется, даже если бы парень выбрался, он бы не оправился от такого шока, пока самая мерзкая сцена.. Не совсем поняла, как Ганнибал расправился с маньяком. Показалось, что на нем не было перчаток, когда лез наверх (может, не заметила). Затем, как он его туда уложил? Добровольно, что ли? Типа чел был в сознании? А ногу посмертно отпилил? Вроде говорил, что не портит еду, сначала кучу героина ввёл, потом съел? Но жуть, конечно, берет от этого всего 🙈
The author himself saw nothing but darkness, and the Lecturer, by placing the author there, wanted to "help him see"
Oops
Hmm
Well, then
The leap of faith failed
And I want to carry Bedelia in my arms because she made it clear to Will that he's not alone.
Well, yes, I could, but I just don't remember that at least someone could put Hannibal behind bars without consequences for themselves.
Lecter is portrayed in the series as not quite human. there is no evidence against him, people always believe him, he is a little more than a man, but definitely less than God.
and why are you trying to impose one specific case (of one particular bedelia) on all people of the same profession at once? It's completely ridiculous.
she did what she did, there are enough characters with gray morals in this story. they should not be accepted as bae, but they should not be evaluated from the point of view of general morality. That's not what they're made for.
To watch and not evaluate the situation in the series - I do not even know how it is.
It's the same with the doctors in this series, some may be white-fingered / mean / selfish, while others may not. and there is no point in judging them all equally.
For Hannibal, out, Will is a friend. or something more. For Will, out, Hannibal is a monster. or something more, over time. yes, of course, you will take the side of the one who is closer to you and it is from this point of view that you will evaluate what is happening.
but does your point of view make these characters (and their actions) unambiguous? No.
reasoning about morality (and even more so gray) does not necessarily have to be reflected in the laws, but such questions need to be asked, and only then, in the future, through discussions, practice (of course, disputes) will they find their application in life
what is now a common morality for you a few centuries ago was a perversion, so you have a strange conservatism.
and you have moved away from the original topic as much as possible, by the way.
and again, you've moved off the topic of discussion, by the way.
it is not surprising that you do not remember, you are sprayed on other topics.
and why on earth would you suddenly decide for the heroine/creators of the series? on which her character, logical actions, etc. depend. She did this in the canon.
It's just that you see her differently, but that's only your problem when her actions don't fit into your ideas about her.
you can't do anything with the canon, even if you crack it. and the heroine is exactly like that, you can disagree at least a hundred times.
and again, you do not want to follow the idea of the authors, transferring everything to another plane.
I understand that the series greatly impressed you as a child. But sometime it still comes time to reconsider your childhood experiences.
Even Chicatillo or Popkov in their film incarnations are closer to the concept of absolute evil than Gannushka. There are just maniacs who want and kill for no reason.
I watched the series at a conscious age, not as a child, again you are fantasizing and adjusting the information in the way that is convenient for you.
it is very impossible, of course, because we have so many similar adaptations of Hannibal. Everyone is like that with the aestheticization of murders, yeah.
You talk about objectivity, but you are no less subjective than I am.
and yet, I have never denied the existence of her guilt, whereas you demonize her as much as possible, saying that she does not deserve a drop of sympathy.
Should I look for an internship in a consultant?
lol, Mom is not a daughter. fear can be stronger than love.
And it's good that you don't lift a finger - this once again proves the inconsistency of your statements.
And indeed, there is a mother there, not a daughter. A mother is more attached to her child than a 19-year-old daughter is to her father.
you deliberately went off the topic of the dispute in this thread, and talked nonsense, you deserved all the bad words in your address.
Should I send you a second time?
Okay: go fuck yourself. from now on, I will answer you only in a similar way.
Oh, yes, I almost forgot, go fuck yourself 😸
And the author of the fresco has a leg cut off, where is there more evidence that it is needed for dinner at the ogre's?
Due to his very heightened empathy abilities, Will feels the emotional components especially sharply. And the peculiarities of his perception paint a picture in the brain. For example, the copycat, after the first murder, became a deer. Interestingly, a very similar deer, only in the form of a statuette, stood in Hannibal's office (he also killed a man with it later, do you remember?), but Will did not correlate this, mistaking it for mind games (it's easy for us, the audience, to say, we know who it really was). And after the murder of the girl from the pressure chamber, the image of a deer in Will's mind transformed into the image of a burned man with deer antlers. You see?
So it's not clairvoyance, it's empathy + well-developed intuition.
off. Yes, Will, we think you're a psychopathic killer, but you keep helping us and making your condition worse.
autoimmune - There is no House on them
And I also love the scenes of him feeding people with human flesh and still being sarcastic, but they don't understand)))
Lol, even an ogre psychologist goes to a psychologist!
Maybe this is related to the dishes served by the doctor Lecturer))
I like that he is finally starting his game.
The moment where Hannibal's most beautiful therapist told Will that she believed him- Oh My God, it was just divine.
Like the whole series. 5 out of 5. I hope that it will be better from now on, finally the series begins to please me.
"Hello."
Clean: you didn't call, I showed up
This phrase is pounding in my head
Jack and co, of course, are being duplicitous. "Will, you're a murderer, but help us find another murderer, ah, brotherly!" Although it is difficult for them, of course: it is difficult to move against the evidence.
Bedelia is a goddess! It was only necessary to talk more closely with Hannibal, try to get into his head and, apparently, go through something traumatic together (did he kill the attacking patient, or what?), as soon as you begin to believe more willingly in Will's innocence)
Such a farm cannot be maintained by one person. You can't train so many bodies unnoticed. And Hannibal himself would have been noticed in a transparent suit. Plus, I would have lit up the car.
The moment with the severed leg is also unclear. When Hannibal sewed the maniac into the center of the composition, there was a leg. There would be a lot of sawing marks left.
Когда она подошла вплотную к Уиллу и прошептала “I believe you” у самой словно с души камень упал,хоть кто-то верит Уиллу!😭✨